DISCUSSION OF USE OF DIM 7 CHORDS Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 14:24:12 -0700 From: frankj@curran.Eng.Sun.COM (Frank Curran) Subject: diminished 7th chords What is a good set of guidelines for how to use diminished 7th chords? I see them used a lot but I've never really paid much attention to what is going on specifically. For example, I have noticed the use of the dim7 chord one-half step above following a major chord, for example, A followed by Adim. I don't know if that is only when the A is I and the changes are moving to some other specific place or what. For example in a 12 bar blues, when bar 5 is IV bar six is often #IVdim, which then is followed by I or VI7/ii/V7/I or whatever. So one way to rephrase the question is: If one were to scan a large volume of charts and for each instance of a dim7 chord, analyze what preceded it, what followed it and what function it is serving, is there a set of simple set of guidelines that would describe what is happening? Frank ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:51:20 -0700 From: reed@reedkotler.com (Reed Kotler Consulting) Subject: Re: diminished 7th chords Frank, I don't have time to completely answer your question tonight but let me shed some light on this problem. The most common use of the diminished chord is as a dominant substitute. In classical harmony, every triad has a basic function, either tonic, subdominant or dominant. The V and viio chords are the dominant function chords. That is V -> I or V->i or viio->I or viio->i . When extended to seventh chords we get the same thing: V7->I V7->i or viio7 -> I or viio7-> i . However they can essentially precede any chord, treating it as in essence a I. Thus in jazz we might see: Cmaj7 C#o7 Dmi7 .... In the situation you mentioned in the blues, this concept is extended. For example in Bb blues you have Eb7 Eo7 Bb7/F . People usually omit the true bass note that the Eo7 chord is approaching which leads to confusion about what is going on here. In this situation even though the target chord is a Bb7, the diminished chord treats the bass note as if it were the root. This is very common in classical music and in gospel (as well as various pop music). For example in gospel you might have: C F F#dim C/G .... Of course the diminished chord is also a form of rootless dominant seventh chord so it can be used like that. But in a pure diminished form it general will be followed by another chord whose bass note (and most likely root) is a half step above the root (bass note) of the diminished chord. In american popular music there is another use which to the best of my knowledge is not found in classical music. That is the biiio7 chord as in the beginning of "Embraceable You" Cmaj7 Ebo7 Dmi7 G7 ..... There are other uses of diminished chords, especially Bill Evans and Wes Montgomery liked to use a sequence of them (or piece of them, like say the root and third, or just the diminished triad) which stay in the diminished scale. For example: Co7 Do7 Ebo7 Fo7 F#o7 G#o7 Ao7 Bo7. This can be used for a pure diminished sound or as a dominant substitute. [later...] I forgot one important diminished use which you mentioned. That is io7 I. This is basically really a io7 I6 in otherwords: Cdim7 -> C6 .. It is in essence a double appogitura. See my explanation of this on my post on "I Remember You". Its [C D# F# A] -> [C E G A] with both the D# and F# resolving. reed Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 16:10:31 -0400 From: BLigon@mozart.music.sc.edu (Bert Ligon) Subject: Re: diminished 7th chords >What is a good set of guidelines for how to use diminished 7th chords? If you look at the major minor system, the only place you find fully diminished 7 chords is viio7 in a minor key. Traditionally (Bach to Tin Pan Alley) the chord is used functioning to point to the i chord in minor. However, confusion usually ensues because of enharmonic spellings and the fact that it can and often does resolves in a deceptive cadence. In the progression: F - F#o7 - Gm7 - G#o7 - Am7, found in many tunes like "It Could Happen To You" and others, you could analyze the chords as I - viio7/ii - ii - viio7/iii - iii. For the I, ii and iii chords you are in the key of F major, so the notes of the F major scale work. For the F#o7 (viio7/ii) you are in the key of G minor, and we derive harmony from the harmonic minor scale, so the G harmonic minor scale sounds correct. For the G#o7 (viio7/ii) you are in the key of A minor, so the A harmonic minor scale sounds correct. The F#o7 is essentially taking the place of D7b9 the V of G minor, and the G#o7 is standing in for the E7b9. Either way, the chords point the way, tonicizing the next chord. Sometimes these chords are difficult to determine which key they are from. Often the G#o7 is written as an Abo7. An Abo7 chord is the viio7 of Bbb minor, the relative minor to Dbb major, with a key signature of 12 flats! I don't know about the rest of you, but I would rather think no sharps of flats than 12 flats. Other times the diminished chord may be in an inversion, but written as if it is not. For example: Cm/Eb Do7 Cm. (i6 - viio7 6 - i). The shorthand is to write the diminished chord as a Do7, but in this context it may be a Bo7. What's the difference? The actual chord spelling use the same enharmonic pitches, but while Bo7 is the viio7 of Cm, Do7 is the viio7 of Eb minor. In the passage, using a C harmonic minor may be the more musical choice. There are times the diminished chord may not resolve as expected which can cause some confusion. In the first few measures of "The Song Is You" the chords are: C - D#o7 - Dm7. How can the D#o7 point to Dm? It doesn't; it points to Em and deceptively resolves to Dm7. The progression is I - viio7/iii - ii, and the E harmonic minor sound works over the D#o7 chord. (The D#o7 chord is sometimes spelled as Ebo7, which would be the viio7 of Fb minor!) There are times when the diminished 7 chord sounds good using a octatonic scale, (A.K.A.: diminished scale, whole-half, symmetrical scale). So for a Bo7: B-C#-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-B. Using it arbitrarily would not be good as you may notice. If traditionally the Bo7 is suppose to point to C minor, then the C#, and E notes are, at best, ambiguous to that key, while the F-G-Ab-Bb sound natural. Sorry if I went on too long, but it is in the interest of clarity. Sometimes answers that are too brief can lead to misunderstanding. If anything here is unclear, please let me know. Thanks _______________________________________ Bert Ligon Director of Jazz Studies _______________________________________ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:08:41 -0000 From: Ian M Dilley Subject: RE: diminished 7th chords A little addendum to Reed's comments. Diminished chords are especially useful as dominant substitutes because each one can sub for 4 different dominant chords. You can consider a diminished chord to be 2 tritones interleaved. This gives you the possibility to resolve to a chord a semitone above any of the notes in the chord. Ian Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:53:30 -0400 From: "Lawson G. Stone" Subject: Re: diminished 7th chords On Diminished chords, I have found the following rules of thumb helpful as a beginner: 1. Diminished chords may generally substitute directly for a minor. Instead of Dm7 G7 C, Do7 will work for Dm7. 2. When a dom7 chord resolves up a 4th (as in V7 I) the diminished chord based on any chord tone but the root will work (ie 3rd, 5th, or b7). On guitar especially this is helpful. If you know the inversion of the dom7 chord, then any diminished fingering that doesn't land on the root will work. 3. In case 2, the diminished chord a half-step higher than the root will also work. For G7, Abo7. 4. When a non-dom7 IV chord resolves to the I, as in Fmaj7 C maj 7, the dim7 based on the root of the IV makes a nice passing chord. So IV I become IV IVo7 I. Or even IV IVmin7 I works well. Likewise, lines implying this harmony can sound nice, often even when the rhythm section doesn't play those chords. More tension, then, though, means the resolution needs to be more convincing. 5. In solos, lines based on these diminished subs will usually sound fine as well. I think these can be summarized by two rules: 1-Chords resolving up a fourth may be replaced by diminished chords and lines based on the root a half-step higher (cases 2,3,5). 2-All Minor7 chords, and major chords resolving up a 5th may be replaced by diminished chords and lines based on the same root (cases 1, 4, 5). Note: Joe Pass (great jazz guitarist, for non guitar players on the list) once told me in personal correspondence that if we don't have confidence in our ears, or if we are uncertain about what we're hearing in our heads, that diminished scales are a good fallback. What he actually said was tougher. Having told me to play only what I hear in my head, he said if I couldn't do that, "Find another hobby, or learn to read music, or play all diminished scales-can't go wrong." If I've erred here or missed something important, please offer any corrections or additions that are appropriate. I'm still very much a beginner in these realms. [later] Reed Kotler Consulting wrote: > > I forgot one important diminished use which you mentioned. > > That is io7 I. > > This is basically really a io7 I6 > > in otherwords: > > Cdim7 -> C6 .. It is in essence a double appogitura. See my > explanation of this on my post on "I Remember You". > > Its [C D# F# A] -> [C E G A] with both the D# and F# resolving. > This reminds me of some questions I had about 2 common sequences. I have seen the following two types of lines: 1. The "Have you Met Miss Jones" line: F F#o7 Gm7 C7 (I I#o7 iim7 V7) 2. The "Embraceable You" line: G Go7 Am7 D7 (I Io7 Am7 D7) [insert quote of early reed post] Both seem very similar, but I wondered if the following observations were correct: 1. In case 1, the I#o7 could be seen as a sub for I7, suggesting the underlying harmony is I I7 IV... or I IV... 2. In case 2, the Go7, containing G and E, could be a sub for the VI minor, suggesting an underlying I vi ii V, or I V movement. In these two cases, the somewhat different function of the ii V seems clear. In case 1, the ii as rel. min. of the IV masks the basic nature of the harmony as I to IV. In case 2, the ii V is more of an expansion on the V, masking as I vi ii V does, a basic I V movement. Thus in soloiing over these changes, it is a mistake to treat the ii V in case one similarly to case 2. Especially in playing "Miss Jones" where the next bar Am7 Dm7 takes you to a different kind of tension. Obviously in over my head, I would appreciate correction and supplementation. I find that treating these two types of lines differently preserves the distinctive character of the sequences for soloing, lest all improvisations begin to sound alike. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:02:51 -0700 From: reed Subject: Re: diminished 7th chords Lawson, You are making things way too complicated for yourself. You alternate theoretical explanation for all this doesnt make any sense to me at all. See my earlier two posts on this. That's all there is. It's not any more complicated than that no matter whether it's Bill Evans or Chopin. > >This reminds me of some questions I had about 2 common sequences. I have >seen the following two types of lines: > >1. The "Have you Met Miss Jones" line: F F#o7 Gm7 C7 (I I#o7 iim7 V7) The F#o7 is just like I explained in my earlier post. Diminished chords can have a dominant function just resolving to the chord a half step above. In this case it is also possible to substitute D7 for the F#o7 because the chords are essentially the same and because the bass motion works. Thus : F D7 Gmi7 D7 >2. The "Embraceable You" line: G Go7 Am7 D7 (I Io7 Am7 D7) > This chord is not Go7 but rather Bbo7. See my earlier post. >Both seem very similar, but I wondered if the following observations >were correct: > >1. In case 1, the I#o7 could be seen as a sub for I7, suggesting the >underlying harmony is I I7 IV... or I IV... no. its a sub for VI7. >2. In case 2, the Go7, containing G and E, could be a sub for the VI >minor, suggesting an underlying I vi ii V, or I V movement. > no. see my earlier post. >In these two cases, the somewhat different function of the ii V seems >clear. In case 1, the ii as rel. min. of the IV masks the basic nature >of the harmony as I to IV. In case 2, the ii V is more of an expansion >on the V, masking as I vi ii V does, a basic I V movement. Thus in >soloiing over these changes, it is a mistake to treat the ii V in case >one similarly to case 2. Especially in playing "Miss Jones" where the >next bar Am7 Dm7 takes you to a different kind of tension. > There are no different functions of the ii/V here. They are just plain old ii/V's. reed From: "Lawson G. Stone" Subject: Re: diminished 7th chords I appreciate Reed's comments on my post. I think beginners, in order to get at what is really "simple," sometimes have to reinvent the wheel ina few places, which is likely what I've done. On the other hand, some of the distinctions I tried to make still feel different, especially the ii-V in Miss Jones vs. Embraceable You. The context around those progressions, I think, does make for a different function. I will try to rethink the issue. Thanks for the input. Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:20:52 -0700 From: reed Subject: Re: diminished 7th chords At 10:13 AM 10/16/96 -0400, you wrote: >I appreciate Reed's comments on my post. I think beginners, in order to >get at what is really "simple," sometimes have to reinvent the wheel ina >few places, which is likely what I've done. On the other hand, some of >the distinctions I tried to make still feel different, especially the >ii-V in Miss Jones vs. Embraceable You. The context around those >progressions, I think, does make for a different function. I will try to >rethink the issue. Thanks for the input. >--=20 >//////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ >Lawson G. Stone=97Asbury Theological Seminary=97Wilmore, KY 40390 >\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////// >"I never practice. I open the case once in a while and throw in a=20 >piece of meat." Wes Montgomery, Jazz Guitarist, told to Jim Hall. > > > Lawson, You'll find that jazz (and classical theory) can be boiled down to a handful of very simple rules. In fact most jazz musicians ply their craft with an amazingly small amount of information and techniques. I remember Hal Galper telling me that many years ago and of course I didnt believe him. Those watching it think it's complicated but it's just the opposite. You seem to be a Joe Pass fan. Have you seen his video on Solo Guitar Playing? He boils each tune down into the most simple way possible. That makes it easier to remember and also then he can reharmonize because you can choose different paths as long as you satisy the outline of the tune. For example he would probably think of "Have You Met Miss Jones" as: F | | | C7 | I'm serious. Watch the video sometime. There are many ways to play the beginning of that tune. I use: F Bb7 | Ami7 D7 | Gmi7 | C7 | reed