reed: Marc Sabatella wrote: > > >>Looking further along we see the Ebmaj7 going to Ab7 going to > > >>Bbmaj7. Clearly a strange looking progression. > > > The Ab7 to Bbmaj7 can also be looked at this way - Ab7 as a substitute > > for > > F7. > > This particular chord - bVII - is actually one of the canonical examples of > what, in classical theory, is called a "borrowed" chord - it is diatonic to > the parallel minor key of Bb minor. In that analysis, it would be seen as > substituting for the ordinary vii(o) chord, which of course is itself just > a substitution for the V. You might also expect the borrowed iv chord to > precede the bVII - that is, Ebm7-Ab7. This would be similar to "Lady Bird" > - I/I/iv/bVII/I... > Okay, I think I see what you are saying here. You are saying that the "parallel" minor key of Bb major is Bb minor. ("parallel" minor is not the same as "relative" minor for those that may be confused by this). By Bb minor you mean the relative minor scale of Db. In this key Ab7 is the dominant, so it is a diatonic chord in that key. Thus we are borrowing a chord from the parallel minor to use in a progression for the major scale (a common technique from classical music). Then you are saying that the viio7 of Bb would be Adim7 (which can function as the V of Bb). In this case Ab7b9 == Adim7. In this case by borrowed iv chord you mean the iv chord from the Bb minor which is Ebmi. I think we are thinking along similar lines. The chord we are targetting is Bb, it's just a matter of how we view the approach. In fact we end up agreeing on the improvisation scale though by slightly different means. We are both seeing the chord for that measure as borrowed harmony from the "parallel" minor. In my case I'm seeing it as a borrowed iv chord so that we get a minor plagal cadence and you are seeing it as essentially a viio7 of Bb and using Ab7 as a subsitute for that chord. Then I see the Ab7 as just a V of the borrowed iv (Ebmi) and you see the borrowed iv7 (ebmi7) as a ii of Ab7. If you see Ebmi as the essential chord, then Eb jazz minor is the essential tonality. (That is Ebmi not Ebmi7. Ebmi7 would in general always make the V chord [Ab7] more importan). So I'm seeing the important chord as Ebmi6. If you see Ab7 as the essential chord (being the V of Db major) then Db major would be the essential tonality. If you chose to play |Ebm7 Ab7| for the measure then Ab mixolydian (Db major) would work most naturally. Now you say a little later that you tend to use D7 alt for the Ab7 (tritone sub). D7 alt scale is the same as Eb jazz minor so we arrive at the same scale for improvisation purposes. (D7 alt being the mode starting on the seventh degree of Eb jazz minor). > > Using this technique, B7 and D7 could also be used here > > I tend to use Eb7alt - D7alt a lot here, sometimes walking the alt chords > down to Bb7alt which I would use in place of the expected Bbmaj7. The > Bb7alt can actually be used as a pedal of sorts over the next several > measures. > So you are saying that beginning with bar 7 you use: |Eb7alt D7alt| Bb7alt ..... | with the Bb7 alt as a pedal for a few measures. This is in place of the traditional |Ab7 |Bbmaj7 | So the Eb7 is V of Ab7 and D7 is the tritone sub of Ab7. Thanks for the stimulating post. reed > -------------- > Marc Sabatella > marc@fortnet.org > http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 01:08:57 +0100 From: aayoung@sonic.net (Alan Young) Subject: Re: Stella, again At 11:19 PM 9/11/96, Marc Sabatella wrote: >The system rejected my first attempt to send this; sorry if it's old news >now, but I wanted to try again. I'm glad you did, Marc. I got here late, and arriving at this point in the discussion has been very confusing. My chart of Stella is in a different key...but I guess you are talking about measures 9-11? > >> >>Looking further along we see the Ebmaj7 going to Ab7 going to >> >>Bbmaj7. Clearly a strange looking progression. I have the published sheet music, which indicates C - F9 - G (for guitar), but *spells* the chords (in the piano voicing) as C9(no 7) - F9 - Dsus. The Dsus is less startling than a G or Gmaj7. (Bbmaj7 in your key). >I tend to use Eb7alt - D7alt a lot here, sometimes walking the alt chords >down to Bb7alt which I would use in place of the expected Bbmaj7. The >Bb7alt can actually be used as a pedal of sorts over the next several >measures. This is an intriguing solution. It certainly colors the piece in a modern way. I've been using Ebmaj9 - Ab9 - Ami7b5, which IMHO better preserves the original character of the music. I tried several substitutions for the Ab9 and didn't like any of them. ---- Fathom ---- > 8-) > Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 01:55:57 -0700 From: reed kotler Subject: Re: Stella, again My chart of Stella is in a different > key...but I guess you are talking about measures 9-11? > > Your are looking at it in G. I think we are counting measures differently. I have the sheet music too. Beginning with the "refrain", don't count the first bar with the word "The" as it's just a pickup. Therefore you C major chord (Ebmaj7 in the key of Bb) should be beginning at bar 7. (The sheet music should have had a double bar after that first pickup measure). I think you are suggesting, beginning with bar 7 |Ebmaj9 | Ab9 | Ami7b5 | The Ami7b5 is intriguing, how do you follow that? It's too late at night for me to go the piano to hear that possibility there. I think mark was suggesting: |Ebmaj7 | Eb7alt D7alt | Bb7alt | Had you added the 13,#11 to your chord you would get Ab13#11==D7alt. In any case they are just tritone subs. reed ------------------------------ From: Bill Kennerly >>> >>Looking further along we see the Ebmaj7 going to Ab7 going to >>> >>Bbmaj7. Clearly a strange looking progression. > >I have the published sheet music, which indicates C - F9 - G (for guitar), >but *spells* the chords (in the piano voicing) as C9(no 7) - F9 - Dsus. >The Dsus is less startling than a G or Gmaj7. (Bbmaj7 in your key). > This sounds like a 2nd inversion I with a double appoggiatura in the melody. After considering this, I find that the resulting bass line, starting in the bVII7 area, could be a real nice line descending from the bVII. bVII7 - bVII7/bVI - I4-3/V - bVm7b5 - IV7b9 - iiim7 - bIII9+11 - V4-3/II - iii - etc. Bill --------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 05:35:53 -0700 From: reed kotler Subject: stella An interesting substitution was suggested by Don on bars 7 and 8. For bars (5-8) we have : |Fmi7 |Bb7 | Ebmaj7 | Ab7 | Instead we use: |Fmi7 |Bb7 |Emi7b5 |Ebmi7 Ab7 | Dons idea was that the Emi7b5 only differed from the Eb6 by one note and offered some surprise value as well as a more interesting bass line. I think Dons basic feeling is that fancy reharmonizations were always played by bass players who were searching to play more well connected bass lines. Chordal instrument players just learned to figure out what notes to put on top of the bass line to make a complete chord. reed ------------------------------